DTA and Kahles partnership - Sneak Peek

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Nicholas
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Re: DTA and Kahles partnership - Sneak Peek

Post by Nicholas »

It is much easier to center a target in the cutout then with a crosshair because a crosshair covers the target. :) Once you use it you will understand better.

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Seddo
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Re: DTA and Kahles partnership - Sneak Peek

Post by Seddo »

I know what you mean, the MOA reticle in my Sightron has the cross hairs stopping 1moa before the centre and a floating dot. Its great being able to see your target without lines running through them.

RomeoWhiskey
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Re: DTA and Kahles partnership - Sneak Peek

Post by RomeoWhiskey »

Orkan wrote:Can you explain some of that thinking to me?

Crosshairs have been getting it done for a hundred years... why is the window superior?

I tried a few crosshairs with the open centers and absolutely hated them.

Regular x in the center, quarter the target, fire. A little window is predicated on having something that fits in there to shoot at. ... makes quartering what you are shooting at nearly impossible. If the window is superior, why not have it for all the aim points?

What am I missing?

Obviously I'm not going to be forming a final opinion one way or the other until I have a chance to get behind one... but I'm just wanting to know more about what makes this better than a crosshair.

Everything else about the reticle looks fantastic.

Can I see a pic at low power?
MOA turrets with Mil reticle was the standard here in the US for a long time too. Still is for some people. Grin. Im kidding.

As Nick said, the open window allows for easier centering of a small target. Much better over the crosshairs. My two favorite reticles are the S&B MSR and the Vortex EBR2B. As much as I love the MSR, it gives up some precision when compared to the EBR at extreme range. You just cover too much of the target.

Im driving to work, well, Jake is driving, but I'm going off memory here. I think the AMR window allows 7" of "window" at 2000 yards. Nick, please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have the numbers in front of me. You can't aim that small with conventional cross type devices. you would be hovering around on the target trying to quarter it. Not only that, the human eye automatically centers the object in the window, think ghost rings, when concentrating on the reticle while aiming. It really is a great setup.

We love the input Greg, as much as we try, we can never please everybody. I do hope you like the reticle when they start shipping, as well as the complete scope when all the upgrades have been put in place.

Orkan
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Re: DTA and Kahles partnership - Sneak Peek

Post by Orkan »

Real funny Russ! ;) Talking to those guys makes me want to smash my head on a rock.

7" at 2000yds is DAMN SMALL.

That mule deer I shot at 945 this last fall with my DTA... that means there is no way the deer's vital zone fits in that little window. So instead of having a nice crosshair to quarter him with, I have a little circle to try to "put in the middle."

Image

There's an example of what I'm talking about. I don't recall the exact yardage when I took that picture, about 800yds if memory serves... but quartering with a crosshair works pretty damn well. :)

However, it's noteworthy that when vortex came out with their Razor line of scopes... they only offered one reticle. They were forced to design and offer the EBR-3 with the standard crosshair to pick up the sales they were missing. If you guys want to make sure you pick up as many buyers as possible, you'll likely be put in the same position. After all... is more reticle choices really that bad of a thing? Just about every manufacturer has at least two or three available in their flagship scopes.

I think I'd agree with you when shooting at 2000yds. However that's not what most people do... and certainly not while hunting.

As I said, I'll check it out before bitching too much. ...well too much more anyway. If you have no plans to offer any other reticles... then I guess we better hope I like it. If I don't, then chances are good that there will be others that won't either.

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coldboremiracle
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Re: DTA and Kahles partnership - Sneak Peek

Post by coldboremiracle »

Nick, do you have a different pic of the reticle at a lower magnification, such as 10-14?

ShadowPeo
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Re: DTA and Kahles partnership - Sneak Peek

Post by ShadowPeo »

Not mine, but I know the photographer

Image

Nicholas
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Re: DTA and Kahles partnership - Sneak Peek

Post by Nicholas »

Orkan,
What is it exactly that you don't like it is just the gap in the very center or all the gaps in the center mil area?

I shoot qtr inch dots at 100 yards all the time and my P4F reticles nearly covers the entire dot many times I have to aim off center to improve my hold ensuring consistent shot placement, the window eliminates this, it is different, but last time I checked we kind of make a living on doing things different. At 100 yards it's .2" so at 1000 yards it 2.06" Next time you are shooting a group with 6mm cartridge you will be able to see your hole so you can tighten up your cluster and not have the hole covered by the crosshair. I don't see when a cross would provide better precision. If the gap was really large it might pose a problem but even then I'm sure everyone on here is very good at centering up the front sight post on their AR's or FAL rifles without any problems.

For the time being this is the reticle. We really like it and I hope everyone at least gives it a fair look because we feel it sets a new standard in precision, versatility, and cleanliness.

PS. I don't have a picture of it zoomed out yet.

Orkan
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Re: DTA and Kahles partnership - Sneak Peek

Post by Orkan »

Nicholas wrote:Orkan,
What is it exactly that you don't like it is just the gap in the very center or all the gaps in the center mil area?
No, I LOVE the rest of the gaps... I just don't like the center window.

It's the difference between having a reticle that does paper well, or does steel and big game well.

What you are talking about is perfect for paper. I agree with you. It likely will set a new standard, and I understand you are doing things different sucessfully... however in this instance you are missing what I'm saying entirely simply because most people don't have experience dropping deer past a few hundred yards. It will be a detriment for hunting, plain and simple. I've been there, and tried them before. On a deer, you don't have a tiny little aim point. You've got a big brown blob. Now instead of a nice fine crosshair to center on my chosen point of aim... I've got a big circle covering up parts of the animal while I try to center a circle on a rectangle. Could those of us that don't like it adapt and overcome? I'm sure. That's what we do with every optic on the market right now. NONE of them are right.

A little crosshair suspended right in the middle would let us use this reticle on animals just as we do on steel. If you don't see the importance of what I'm talking about right now... I'm sure you will as others give you feedback down the line. I could care less if I have to offset to put tight groups at 100yds. I could further care less if my reticle covers up a 1/4 dot at 100yds. What I care about is whether or not I can quarter targets at extended ranges. That's when it counts. When shooting steel, and when hunting. This reticle having a circle in the middle instead of a crosshair will make my job harder. Simple as that.

As I said, I have no clue why we can't have our cake and eat it too. Everything else about the reticle is perfect in my opinion. Yet the center aimpoint being the way it is now will exclude you from segments of the market at ONE GLANCE that would otherwise be on this thing like white on rice. I'm giving it a shot because I love you guys. ;) Others won't be so accommodating, mark my words.

Bottom line... if the rest of the scope has all of the features I've requested... and using this reticle will be the only thing I have to overcome... I'll be happy as a pig in shit. I can overcome a reticle. I can't add features to a scope. ... and I'll let the rest of the industry apply some pressure to you when they invariably see what I have pointed out in regard to the reticle. ;)

... or, I'll be proven wrong when I use it, and then I'll admit it... and you can use me as another example of a naysayer that ended up agreeing with you. :D

Orkan
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Re: DTA and Kahles partnership - Sneak Peek

Post by Orkan »

It occurs to me that I haven't even asked the most important question yet:

When can I get a new DTA Kahles scope?

Nicholas
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Re: DTA and Kahles partnership - Sneak Peek

Post by Nicholas »

New scopes are available at shot show. New reticles should be available by march.

The beauty of what we do is we get to make what we want and our new reticle is "exactly" what we want and we love it. It may not be for everyone but it most definitely is for us. :-). You are welcome to your own opinion but I whole heartedly disagree with you and know it will be very well received because it just flat out works. It is extremely fast, flexible, simple, and uncluttered.

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